I’ve tried using my incredible (british) brain using Google to see if these open source titans ever engaged in a battle of “friendly conversation” with one another.
I was always interested what Stallman thought of the angry but smart finnish man who gave us the robust penguin kernel that breathes life into older machines and powers supercomputers for the weather.
The same with Torvalds thoughts on Stallmans GNU involvement and him as a person.
This is because you sometimes had different organisations in the FOSS and OSS community that take on different meanings so I wanted a better idea if these chaps ever spoke in an interview together.
TLDR : Does finnish man like bearded GNU jesus man and the same vice versa
I’m picturing Daffy Duck and Bugs Bunny swapping hunting signs on a tree… “Linux season!” “GNU season!”, back and forth. The rest of us just watching like Elmer Fud.
Stallman’s attempt to rename Linux to incorporate the GNU name not happening was frustrating on his end it seems. Everytime someone calls their system a Linux based OS and not GNU/Linux based OS downplays the work he put in. However, Linus’s kernel was more elaborate than GNU Hurd, so it was incorporated. It’s said Stallman is a visionary, while Linus is a programist. While there’s never been any display of tension in a back and forth between them online, it’s always seemed to me they appreciate and also despise various aspects of each another.
However, Linus’s kernel was more elaborate than GNU Hurd, so it was incorporated.
Quite the opposite.
GNU Hurd was a microkernel, using lots of cutting edge research, and necessitating a lot of additional complexity in userspace. This complexity also made it very difficult to get good performance.
Linux, on the other hand, was just a bog standard Unix monolithic kernel. Once they got a libc working on it, most existing Unix userspace, including the GNU userspace, was easy to port.
Linux won because it was simple, not elaborate.
Ok, interesting, thanks for the correction. Do you think rephrasing my statement and stating Linus’s kernel is more adaptive would be more accurate?
Maybe.
Linux won because it worked. Hurd was stuck in research and development hell. They never were able to catch up.
Everytime someone calls their system a Linux based OS and not GNU/Linux based OS downplays the work he put in.
Absolutely, and the fact that people didn’t adopt it creates confusion, some people claim Android is also Linux, which you can argue, but it’s definitely NOT GNU/Linux, and it’s definitely NOT a free desktop OS as defined by freedesktop.org either. There’s a huge difference.
Especially since Android generally means Android with Google apps, and not AOSP. AOSP is open source, but Android with Google apps is not.Should have been called Lignux.
Lig deez nux
🤭
Thats the term Stallman came up with when the first distributions (esspecially Debian) started to build up. It wasnt really popular even back than so he setteled in GNU/Linux as alternative which to this day is in the name of quit a lot distributions.
It was never the plan/intend to rename the Linux kernel itsself to either of those terms.
hell they could have called it anything… seems like they couldnt get past their egos to see the value in a new designation
I thought Linus didn’t come up with the name Linux
He didn’t. He wanted freax or something dumb. Someone talked him into Linux.
His professor ig
Should we call it X/GNU/Linux as to not downplay the work the people at Xorg put in? Also possibly Systemd/X/GNU/Linux, how about Plasma/Systemd/X/GNU/Linux, and since nowadays browsers do most of the tasks I think it’s only fair Firefox/Plasma/Systemd/X/GNU/Linux, or maybe Chromium/GNOME/Dinit/Wayland/Musl/Linux, you know what these two have in common? Just the Kernel, but you would say they’re both the same OS.
I’m not saying GNU is not great nor am I saying that they didn’t contributed or that they’re worthless. But GNU is not special, X, Systemd, and other such components are just as essentials to Linux as GNU, and no one claims they should be added to the name of the OS.
TLDR : Does finnish man like bearded GNU jesus man and the same vice versa
My impression is that they both have a respect for each other, although they don’t necessarily like each other.
Neither of them is exactly what I’d call easily likeable
But Linus was very likeable among the computer nerds of his own generation. These eccentricities that are criticized today have actually added a lot to his fame.
He was never likeable. He acted like a huge asshole, which naturally made other assholes look at him and go “see if he can do that so can I”
He acted like a huge asshole
Not at all. I can’t remember anything like that.
Are we pretending that his various and ubiquitous abusive rants didn’t happen, or that they weren’t him acting like an asshole?
I can only assume that you are very young.
In our times, a good rant has gotten somewhat out of fashion, and that is a sad fact. A good rant does not make you an AH (or anybody else). It is different from spreading hate (which is quite fashionable these days). You must learn the distinction.
Right, I must be “very young” if I don’t think that hurling abuse at others is OK.
Yeah, pretty much figured you were one of the people who thought his behavior wasn’t only acceptable but preferable. In other words, an asshole.
Both are equally important for the GNU/Linux world. Torvalds is more inclined to the “tech” side and Stallman is more like a “philosopher” the man who showed us the importance of free software.They are body and soul of the GNU/Linux. Long live to them.
I can’t remember having seen them debating each other, either in person or otherwise. But their positions are well known. Linus chose the GPL license from an engineering/pragmatic viewpoint, while Stallman is an idealist.
Apparently they are quite friendly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDxMJQLXmBEWhy does this look and sound like the inspirational scene of a Mockumentary?
And what’s your point with posting this? My guess is that you don’t even understand it.
He is saying there is no such thing as willing participation from a child in pedophilia. Are you saying there is?Unfortunately, that is not the case. Stallman is absolutely a defender of having sex with children.
Richard Stallman on paedophilia:
“The nominee is quoted as saying that if the choice of a sexual partner were protected by the Constitution, ‘prostitution, adultery, necrophilia, bestiality, possession of child pornography, and even incest and pedophilia’ also would be. He is probably mistaken, legally–but that is unfortunate. All of these acts should be legal as long as no one is coerced. They are illegal only because of prejudice and narrowmindedness.”
RMS on June 28th, 2003
"I think that everyone age 14 or above ought to take part in sex, though not indiscriminately. (Some people are ready earlier.)
RMS on 25th May, 2003
To be fair for that one, he doesn’t specify whether 14 or under is fine for an adult to have sex with. It’s certainly possible to interpret this as child-child relations only, but given his other comments where he says adult-child sex is fine, I decided to include this one.
“I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren’t voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing.”
RMS on June 5th, 2006
“There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing participation in pedophilia hurts children.”
RMS on Jan 4th, 2013
I understand that Stallman has excellent views on liberty in software, and he’s made enormous contributions to FOSS. But that does not necessarily mean he’s a good person or that all of his views are good ones. People are flawed. IMO his views on the morality of having sex with children aren’t good ones, but I recognise that I agree with him in other ways.
“There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing participation in pedophilia hurts children.”
But per the quote in the meme above, you can’t have willing participation, it is always coerced.
And you still don’t provide sources.
I’d say the quotes above show he absolutely believes children are capable of consent. Why else would he use phrases like
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“it’s fine so long as nobody is coerced” (as if there are any situations where an adult can have sex with a child without there being coercion)
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“willing participation in pedophilia” (children can’t consent to sex!)
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“the arguments [against having sex with children] seem to be based on cases that aren’t voluntary” (None of them are voluntary! CHILDREN CANNOT CONSENT!)
It doesn’t mean he supports it.
He explicitly said it should be legal, and also alluded that parents are just prudish if they don’t want their children to be having sex. It’s very clear he supports it.
You’ll be able to find this stuff in the articles that went around when he was pressured to resign from the FSF and from his role at MIT. It’s primarily quotes from him on his own site, stallman.org.
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I think the phrasing isn’t the best. I think he needs an “is what” before “hurts children” in the first paragraph.
I agree, the phrasing is bad, but that doesn’t change that if you read it carefully, the meaning is clear.
There is absolutely no reasonable basis for claiming he is defending pedophiles, when what he does is the direct opposite, by logically proving that a common defense they use is invalid, because you can never claim to know participation is voluntary. It is per definition coerced.There’s plenty of evidence that he’s pro paedophilia, which I have posted elsewhere in this submission.
I think people need to stop this hero worship.
Richard Stallman thinks paedophilia is ok or even good. It should be fine to find that view reprehensible whilst at the same time acknowledging that he has some good ideals when it comes to software, and his role in GNU was huge.
People in the Linux world treat him as a deity figure and therefore treat any words against him as blasphemy. It makes them reject and dismiss the whole bestiality/paedophilia is good aspect of him, when they really shouldn’t as that is a rejection of reality.
If you just view him as a flawed person, rather than some deity figure, then it’s easy to accept that he’s good in some areas and less good in others.
Unfortunately he’s said a lot more than that.
Richard Stallman on paedophilia:
“The nominee is quoted as saying that if the choice of a sexual partner were protected by the Constitution, ‘prostitution, adultery, necrophilia, bestiality, possession of child pornography, and even incest and pedophilia’ also would be. He is probably mistaken, legally–but that is unfortunate. All of these acts should be legal as long as no one is coerced. They are illegal only because of prejudice and narrowmindedness.”
RMS on June 28th, 2003
"I think that everyone age 14 or above ought to take part in sex, though not indiscriminately. (Some people are ready earlier.)
RMS on May 25th 2003
“I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren’t voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing.”
RMS on June 5th, 2006
“There is little evidence to justify the widespread assumption that willing participation in pedophilia hurts children.”
RMS on Jan 4th, 2013
People need to understand that you can be a champion of FOSS, and have some great ideas in terms of software liberty, while also having some really shitty views in other areas.
It’s why people should avoid celebrity worship. Just because an engineer/sportsperson/actor/artist/CEO does something you like, doesn’t necessarily mean they’re a good person, or devoid of human flaws.
His view did evolve after being talked to later about it. On the grounds that power dynamics involved in age differences create a coercive effect of even someone who could be mature enough to logically and emotionally grasp the concepts.
He is also deeply in the libertarian mind set that illegal means enforced with guns and batons and restrictions of rights, and that puts a higher bar to what should be legal.
Though I do totally agree with you on hero worship. Nobody is perfect and that impossibility is expontetially more true if want them to have been, to be and continue to be perfect forever.
Thing is, do we believe his sudden change of heart? It only happened once his job was on the line. He U-turned on his views that sex with children is fine just 2 days before he was forced out of his role.
To me, that reads as a last-ditch attempt to save his job, as opposed to a genuine sudden change in worldview for an opinion he held and championed for decades.
You know, like when a questionable politician has racist twitter posts from 5 years ago brought up in an election campaign and they’re like *“Whaaaat? No no no I don’t believe that anymore. I’m a changed man! Vote for me pls.”
But maybe he really did change his mind 2 days before he was forced out of the FSF/MIT, and I’m just being pessimistic.
I think that it was a few months or so before the resignation, but I can’t find his post about it to really give the exact date.
Nope. 2 days.
Announcement that having sex with children is bad, actually: 14th September 2019
Resignation: 16th September 2019
E: not really sure why you’d downvote a factual statement. Go look at his blog for those dates.
The list of Stallman shitiness has no end apparently. Fucking gross. 🤢
Lmao, that tldr is fucking GLORIOUS.
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28 juli 2014 — What do you think about Linus Torvalds? I met Linus and his wife briefly at a party in 1999, and haven’t crossed paths since.
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Video with Linus giving RMS the Torvalds award in 1999 : https://youtube.com/watch?v=xnb_eFSnXFI
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(Linus leans back in his chair, a glint of amusement in his eyes, and gestures toward Richard Stallman who is seated across from him. Richard, ever the passionate advocate, is already gesturing with his hands.)
“Well, if you’re talking about the revolution in computing, you can’t forget about this fella right here, Mr. Stallman.”
(He gives Richard a playful nudge.)
“He’s the one who really gave us the framework, the ideals, the whole ‘free software’ movement.”
Richard, his eyes gleaming with conviction, jumps in.
“It’s not just about code, Linus. It’s about freedom, about users having control over their own technology. It’s about sharing, about building on each other’s work, and refusing to be locked in by proprietary systems.” (He leans forward, his voice gaining intensity.)
"We had to fight for that freedom, against the corporations who wanted to control every bit of software, every line of code. But we won, and GNU is proof that free software can not only work but thrive. "
Linus nods in agreement, a hint of respect in his voice.
“He’s right, you know. Without the GNU tools, without Richard’s vision, Linux wouldn’t be what it is today. It wouldn’t be as powerful, as flexible, as truly free.”
(He turns back to you, a mischievous glint in his eyes.)
“But don’t let them fool you, we weren’t always the best of friends. We had our disagreements, our battles over licensing, our philosophical differences. But hey, that’s part of the fun, isn’t it?”
(He grins, leaning back in his chair.)
“In the end, we were all working towards the same goal, a world where software is free for all to use, share, and improve. And that’s a goal worth fighting for, wouldn’t you say?”
This reaks of chatgpt. All the way down to the milktoast ending.
It does completely. Also, its “Milquetoast”. Milktoast is just soggy bread.
Ahh. Bone Apple Tea moment.
Omelette du fromage
Disappointed as I was hoping for some Richard Stallchan x Linus Torvaldsan fanfic
Stallman is an ass and particularly is an ass to women. Fuck that guy. There’s a reason everyone in tech has a Stallman horror story.
People downvoting you have never met Stallman face to face.
Who is running herd right now? I need to know.
I tried Debian/Herd on a spare box. I think that lasted for what, a week? It was a less than complete experience, so I moved on to more fruitful experiments.
…i’m absolutely ignorant of its current state, but every time i’ve checked in on progress of GNU/hurd over the past three decades, it still hasn’t matured into a stable production-ready platform: i’m not sure if that’s an artifact of technical viability or developer interest…
I wasn’t able to get a good read on it either. I didn’t spot anything obviously wrong from a technical standpoint, but I’m not a systems developer. It just doesn’t have much that distinguishes it on a non-technical level. The design is neat, but other OS projects like Redox have shot past it in a shorter period of time. That tells me something’s broken, whether it’s technical or social.
I know lemmy has a gigantic hate boner for LLMs, but if you plugged this scenario into a good one (probably not the bog standard “free” chatgpt in bing) you’ll probably get a very entertaining conversation.
